During the z-paw, weapons will no doubt be a valuable, in-demand commodity.
Say you are in a group of prepared survivors and you have come across others who were not as prepared but were lucky enough to survive. For the sake of argument, your group is about 8 strong and very self sufficient as it is with a fortified base with a garden, a setup to purify and us more than enough water, ovens and stove powerd by that renewable resource wood, even solar power, and weapons with plenty of ammo. Some would argue that you're already setup and should not bother with other people, but rather than become hermits you've decided to expand your number, thereby further spreading out the work load to better your quality of life for yourselves and other people among other advantages. But most prepared people have taken the same path as you and will not be showing up to join someone else's group. So you will be taking in unprepared people; not useless or anything as they deffinately seem to be good, able people who just didn't prepare like you did for whatever reason. You could upgrade from your little collecton of rabbits and the 2 goats you have as livestock to some chickens, maybe even start using horses if you add some able bodied workers to your farm, maybe one of the survivors has a specialized skill that would come in handy for everyone. (if you meet an experienced surgeon or paramedic who happens to have never held a weapon before, would you turn him or her away?)
But I digress, I am posting this to throw around some ideas of how to arm people who may have never been armed before.
I would love to be more generous to someone than to just throw them a sharp stick and say go get em, but at the same time when you are talking about someone who may have never held a weapon before I would not give them something like an AR right off the bat. Not only does such a weapon require more knowledge to use but ammo would be beyond valuable, and in the hands of someone with no training they could burn through 30 precious rounds in 20 seconds or less without hitting a thing, let alone a zombie head.
For this exact reason I would most likely rule out semi-autos as a first gun for new recruits.
Older, cheaper manually operated guns are what I would be more likely to hand to the newb on the team. Keep in mind that when I would likely not put a complete newb into front line zombat unless it is absolutely neccesary, but would rather have them start out on rear duties in most cases, such as ferrying supplies to the front line. I would deffinately want them to be armed in this situation though, because it is quite likely that they would have to take a few shots, plus it's great training.
Instead of an expensive semi auto pistol (lets say an FNP-9) that could burn through 16 rounds before and put in 16 more before you can say "zombies up ahead!", I may give them an old revolver. I don't know about duing todays gun panic but fairly recently I have seen S&W Model 10 revolvers for $100. That price would be for a very used one with holster wear and scratches, but very capable nonetheless. Not to mention the regular pressure .38 special rounds it takes are fairly cheap too.
There are many other old .38s in the same price range as the Model 10 but that's the one that comes to mind anyway. Reason I suggest this over a fancy semi-auto is that for one they are much simpler in just about every way. No magazine to drop and lose, the cylinder is attatched. Cleaning is just about self explanatory, and it takes about a minute to show someone how to work a revolver. And the problem of burning through ammo solves itself, when the person has to reload the 6 shots one by one they will become much more careful about their shooting.
Another option would be the shotgun. Most shotguns, with the exception of fancy semi-autos will be extremely simple to learn anyway. A pump shotgun, again easy to use and like the revolver, hard to burn through too much ammo too quickly. Most pump shotguns are pretty cheap, aside from super fancy sporting models and super ultra tactic00l models with all the latest rail mounts and stuff. Mossbergs and Remingtons among others can be had for well under $300 brand new. You can get used ones for much cheaper, and even really old pump guns are as good as new ones in most cases.
An even cheaper option would be a single shot or double barrel. Doubles these days are usually expensive sporting guns but you can find some old utilitarian ones for under $150 easily. And single shot shotguns on the used market can be easily found for less then $60. And for those induviduals who have a hard time with 12 gauge recoil there are many smaller but still powerful and easily found shotgun loads out there such as 20 gauge and .410, the latter of which just about anyone could shoot. It doesn't get any simpler than a break barrel shotgun, for ease of use, cleaning, everything.
And last but certainly not least on my list are rifles. Surplus bolt actions would be the first thing I would hand out when it comes to rifles. The first thing that comes to mind is the Mosin-Nagant. These can be had for $100 or less, and surplus ammo is still very available and much cheaper than most other centerfire cartridges these days. Being a 5 shot bolt action it will also make your newb careful about his or her shots. And you can reload it pretty quickly from stripper clips.
This weapon is extremely durable and easy to work. It was designed with the uneducated pheasant with little or no experience with weapons to pick up and use easily, and I don't doubt that it could still serve that purpose. While a newb won't be making any 300 yard+ headshots with this or any weapon they could probably do it at under 60 yards with a few minutes practice. Longer range Rifle shooting is a big skill to master, until then the Mosin has a hell of a bayonet!
So anyway, that's what I could think of for now. Any other ideas? Thoughts? Criticizm?
I would keep the firearms out of the hands of anyone without experience. They'll panic and shoot you in the butt cheek before they hit any zombies. From personal experience, people can learn to shoot quickly, but target shooting is not combat. Panic destroys peoples ability to do rational things. It does make them flail wildly however, which is why I'd give them the baseball bats, the crow bars and the axes. You keep your rifle and smoke the bastards from distance if necessary, but don't make anyone kill anything unless you have to. You don't want your teenage kid to have the thousand yard stare unless its absolutely necessary.
Get to a safe place, then teach them how to bust zombie dome from 200 yards.
Imagination is more important than knowledge
-Albert Einstein
I like Red's answer! I am gonna say, "Ditto" to that.
:-D
On Z-Day, the first thing I am going to do is scream like a little girl. Once that's out, I will be ready to function.
Im not comfortable risking my life by handing anything more than a stick to an untrained person. Once the stick is mastered then we talk sharp things, then projectiles.
you guys are mean! lol
Whether you are trained with fire arms or not, luck plays a major part in survival either way.
I know how to survive..without a gun of any kind...and no..I wouldn't trust myself with one either because I never handled one AND they scare me...but thats me
Have some faith people geez..I think you can make an initial judgment after you have somewhat studied the person, not every single untrained person would panic and shoot you in the ass.
cocky people get shot too...
AND AS AN UNTRAINED PERSON- I would prefer a nice small handgun to begin with.
*folds arms and rushes out of the room*
hmph
Live, Love, Conquer
Leo I'm sorry we sound mean. If I were you I'd find a nice compact revolver, simple action easy to clean and maintain. Train with it a little and you'll be better prepared when you're faced with a drooling stumbler trying to gnaw on your face.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/S-W-60-14.cfm?gun_id=100229896
Imagination is more important than knowledge
-Albert Einstein
I'm of two minds about that. If your talking about some hippy in your group who has never seen a gun before? Hell no i'm not giving them a gun. If your talking someone who grew up with some experience with a gun and in my judgement has enough experience not to shoot me, that needs to be evaluated on a case by case situation. If your talking about a close friend or relative, ZPI member, or former military person, heck yes they will get a gun. Now all of this is a moot point if there isn't enough gun to give to every person. Especially if they are MY guns. I don't want some yahoo who happens to share a camp with me for a few nights running off with my gun. It's not worth the risk to me.
Just because I said small..I didn't mean miniature...I' a girl not a midget :P lol
I was looking more at a Glock 17 semi or fully automatic, seems easy enough to use for a first timer.
Also...I live in Australia...enough said...you all know the system
Hard to get licences, tough laws blah blah blah...no chance.
ANYHOOZ!
Live, Love, Conquer
Giving a novice shooter a gun in a survival situation is for their personal protection. I think the best way to go would be small caliber pistols IE .38sp, .380, .32 acp, .22lr and simple double barrel and single shot shotguns. Ammo capacity and range should be limited to prevent the waste of ammo.
I like knives
I think arming individuals who have limited or no training with guns a gun is a little bit stupid and lot irresponsible. Give them a melee until you can teach them shooting fundamentals and find a place to shoot without drawing a bunch of attention to yourself or your group.
"Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
A glock is a fairly simple straight forward auto, and I would fully recommend it for a novice shooter. That S&W i posted isn't a "little" gun, and by no means is it tiny. You could probably cave in someones skull with it if you gave them a forceful enough pistol whip.
I would avoid the full auto option cuz you'll burn your ammo, but the extended mag is still a great idea for increasing the amount of ammo available to you without hauling boxes of 9 mm, .40, or .45.
And I wouldn't qualify you as someone who would be single out to not be given a firearm. You're on here and you're obviously considering the necessities of a S@#$y situation like Z-day. I'd give you a nice big shotty and let you go to town. Just don't shoot me in the butt cheek and we're good.
Imagination is more important than knowledge
-Albert Einstein
I hear alot of talk about giving a shotgun to an inexperienced person and I can not express how much of a bad idea it is. Law Enforcement only deploy shotguns in dire situations because the lethality is so high and the chance of friendly fire is even higher. The rifle certification is 2x easier than the shotgun certification. In IL we have to qualify with different loads and each load requires a 90% so if you miss once or spray outside the target zone you are at an 80% per load. Loads are Slug, 00buck, #5 and #9. Rifle is easy 11 shots 10 in the 7 ring or better. You are allowed to re-shoot once. They make it more difficult for a reason. Shotguns are more dangerous. If you have to give them something give em a small cal handgun. Less likely to kill all the friendlies.
well sorry to say Chilbert but although you are right, you would find that people that have the option of handling a firearm as opposed to a melee wouldn't agree.
This is why I would prefer to be on my own, because I cannot take orders from anyone, especially anyone limiting MY survival options.
I guess it depends on the situation and location. If I were not in immediate danger I would gladly take the offer to train with a firearm first, but if I had to be making my way through and out of the city, I would rather shoot you in the ass and have a gun in my hands than walk around with my kukri instead.
I think most people would be capable of handling a gun after they are shown the basics at least, with the exception of my sister in law, I wouldn't trust her with a straw...
Live, Love, Conquer
The part about your sister-in-law refutes your own argument...just saying.
"Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
yes Chilbert, and knowing the kind of argument nazi that you are I am certain you read the previous comment where i specifically mention that it would be wise to not entirely judge a person at first glance, it is part of the human ability to just "See" who would be capable and who would not be capable in retaining information that is given to them.
There are certain people that just open their mouths and you can just tell...they cannot be trusted. My sister in law is one, even the way she speaks is slooooow so no..I wouldn't trust her, not because she can't use a gun, but because she scares too easily and because she is not capable of concentrating on the information she is given, and you can tell that is the case as soon as she opens her mouth.
My argument is, show them the basics first up, you can tell by body language alone if someone is confident to use what they are given or not...you should know that.
Live, Love, Conquer
Fair enough and touche'.
:)
"Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
adding to that..my sister law is a special exception to the rule..there are not many like her around....she is special indeed..if you met her..you would quit on her the first five minutes.
Live, Love, Conquer
Personally I would say give them a .22 rifle. Either Semi-auto or bolt. Hell if you REALLY don't trust them give them a .22 cricket. XD Point is that .22 ammo is extremely easy to come across, is still powerful enough to kill a zed, can carry a hundred rounds in the space a few shotgun shells would take up and best of all. . . if they shoot you in the butt-cheek then it won't be as bad compared to getting a shotgun shell there. Oh and another bonus, lack of recoil will help people with no experience fire.
The Kel-Tec PMR-30 is chambered for .22 Magnum. While this is not as common as standard .22, it has about twice the FPS of regular .22. Thirty rounds of a powerful lightweight round in a comfortable style.
If you don't know how great this country is, I know someone who does; Russia- Robert Frost
I think whether to give just melee weapons or also ranged weapons would depend more on maturity loyalty.
Maturity makes us know to never make any practical joke involving guns and to make sure the guns arent dangerous when not in use. Loyalty speaks for itself.
http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/washington-boy-9-writes-apology-gir...
But Im not saying that every newb should be armed with machine guns. I agree with arming newbs simple firearms. But giving them melee weapons in a condition where goblins with guns exist could make them an easy target. People hate getting shot at. So at least theres a chance bad people would leave them alone. Imagine if the goblins get bargaining chips to get your supplies(or ALL supplies) without even firing a shot.
it may come or it may not. But its not just zeds that may ruin your life
I am starting to think that people make to big a deal about "knowing" how to use a firearm. Lets be honest it isn't that hard to use a gun. The business end launches a high speed load of lethality when you pull the trigger. Besides that you just need to know how to actuate the safety and cycle the weapon for most self defense situations. I really don't think that you have to wait until someone knows the finer points of firearms operations to hand them a gun. Things like clearing a jam, cleaning the weapon, proper sighting and the like are things that in all honestly probably wont save you when you are grappling with someone. Should these skills be taught? Most certainly, but you shouldn't deny someone the capability of defending themselves based upon their inability to field strip an AR or hit a moving target at 20 yards with a pistol.
I like knives
It is my belief that at no time, under almost* any circumstances should you ever melee more than a single zombie.
If there are 2 or more, you should run until you are far enough away to kill them at range.
* Obviously if you're out of ammunition, cornered in a room by three zombies who are blocking the exit and you're naked except for a bat or machete or katana (/laugh), you attempt to melee.
What Zombies Fear
Ah, the mental images that brings to mind ...
I'm personally more worried about their "range safety habits" that you can't rightly ascertain unless you spent some time with them on a range in practice. You have to teach people the Big Four Gun Safety Rules and if they don't have those burned into their brains, you can bet on a negligent discharge possibly with you on the receiving end. The fact of teaching them the finer points of Jam clearing, maintenance, and reloading just fit well with teaching those big four lessons. The reason I don't want to just hand someone who has not or handled a gun before is the fact that I need to know they aren't going to shoot me, my group members, or themselves by accident. Yes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to pull a trigger, a child can use a firearm, but it helps to know that when you hand someone a piece of equipment built with the intent and purpose of making things dead that the operator isn't a stupid arse who is going to point it at anything that wasn't meant to be dead (again?)...
I've heard before that using is rifle is like "driving a car" but using a handgun is like "flying an airplane." They can both be dangerous to someone who doesn't know how to drive them or chooses to drive them in ways that are irresponsible. It also speaks to the differences in difficulty in use of either. It is easy to drive a car but not so much a plane. For a rifle, it's easier to imagine that "laser beam" because you've got a large reference point coming out from the stock called a barrel. You can see what direction it's pointed and it isn't terribly difficult to aim because you've got a lot of help what with the butt-stock and all. Not so with a handgun where your point of reference is a front sight and a mindset. Both methods need a mindset but handguns are harder to teach. That stated, how many people here want to hand off their rifle, commonly the primary weapon system, to someone who doesn't know how to use it?
Mind you, I never said I wouldn't want to arm those individuals, I stated that I wanted to know I could trust them with the responsibility to use them safely and effectively towards the goals of defense and survival.
One more thing to address, training those who have little to no experience helps them conquer an all to common phenomenon and that is their own fear of using the weapon. The bang scares them, they show physical signs of it in that their upper body, usually the back will arch far away from the gun, shaking in the arms, legs, and body, and not breathing, or accelerated breathing while standing still. This will lead to bad shots, wasted ammo, possibly a dropped gun, and poor accuracy overall. One of the only ways to beat this and to teach a "compressed surprise break" is to train. Even if the training is only dry-fire to begin with, it's better than the alternative which is nothing.
The first time someone shoots a gun, put a dummy round or snap cap in the chamber and don't let them know. I bet you see some pretty funny things immediately and are able to diagnose some problems before you start. It may seem like a dirty trick, but it's a great teaching tool.
"Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
Hmm, i like the Snap cap idea. I'll have to try that.
You would be surprised how many people pull the gun down whilst they pull the trigger in anticipation of recoil which throws their shots off. You can clearly see this happen when using snap caps. It is also a safer way to teach a proper grip and all weapon manipulation can be done with dummy rounds. Helps with dry-fire practice too so that your firing pin isn't falling on an empty chamber if you are worried about that.
"Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G.K. Chesterton