When I think about survival rifles my mind jumps to two rifles in particular, the Henry AR-7 and the M6 Scout rifle. These two rifles are the top of the breed and are small, compact, lightweight, acurate and above every other one of their qualities reliable. These military back-ups are purpose built for survival after all hell has broken loose, and your on the run and can carry very little. In an article he published on his website about survival guns Chuck Hawks wrote that, "for survival purposes, a takedown rifle with a barrel no longer than 21" will be advantageous. It is simply easier to pack. And space is likely to be at a premium on any wilderness expedition. The survival rifle may be scoped, but iron sights should be provided" and that "The .22 LR should be the cartridge selected for a survival rifle. The object here is to kill small animals and birds for food, not blow them apart with a powerfu cartridge. The .22 LR High Velocity (not Hyper Velocity) cartridge loaded with 36-37 grain hollow point bullets is just about perfect for the purpose of harvesting such game. And .22 LR ammunition is so compact that a 50 round box takes up little more space than a single 12 gauge shotgun shell or three.410 shot shells or center fire rifle cartridges." Certianly the M6 Scout and the Henry AR-7 meet these requirements as well as the Marlin Papoose and the Ruger 10/22 but for me, well I want something bigger. A .22lr round is good for squirrle, rabbits and small irritating dogs and while the .410 is good for birds at close range the round has always felt a bit aneimic. I prefer a larger round for tramping around in my neck of the "Piney Woods" because the animal life is much larger and meaner than the precosious squrrile or the odd run away poodle, I want something that could take down a pig or a deer if I had too. Drawing inspiration from the M6 I have been looking for a lightweight ,reliable, combination rifle that can be broken down and stuffed in a pack, sent down a river, thrown off a cliff and strong enough to club a bear with. I have looked at several models or over under combination rifles lke the Remington Spr94 in. 308/ 12guage or the Savage 24f predator in 22lr/ 12guage, or the Rossi matched sets in an austonishing .243/ 22lr/ 20 guage/ 12guage/ 50 Blackpowder, however these guns loose compact size and leightweigh aspects of the M6 and the Henry. With those two weapons you get a compact weapon system that can carry it's amunition barrels and accesories in the stocks so you don't need a bag to carry the extra barrels or ammo around with you, it's all in the gun. So tell me what you think about the survival rifle concept, is it a niche gun or a unique concept. Of course there are everal other firearms that fit in, the Kel-tec series of Su-16 rifles and the Sub 2000 certainly fit but personaly I don't like them, but maybe you do, so reply with your thoughts.
I'm a big believer in reducing weight and profile when I need to get somewhere. Survival rifles are perfect for this situation. It's good you mentioned the Kel-Tec variants and I'll tell you why. The sub-2000 especially is a great option because it uses pistol calibers but extends their range. That way you can carry 2 weapons, greatly increase your capability, but only have to worry about one kind of ammo. Your stockpile will be narrowed greatly, and you will be proficient with your weapon if you've trained with it.
The saying goes something like don't fear a man who knows a thousand kicks, fear the man who threw the same kick a thousand times. If you train on one weapon and one ammunition, your likelihood of missing is greatly reduced. If necessary do a rifle and pistol caliber.
Imagination is more important than knowledge
-Albert Einstein
I think the new circuit judge would make an exception "survival rifle". I have always felt that many "survival" rifles lack the necessary "umph" one might require in a survival situation. .22 lr is a great caliber but if you were stranded out in the woods and you could only have ONE type of firearm would you really want a .22? I find the .45lc .410 combo appealing. Aside from being a light handy carbine who can argue with the ease of maintenance and reliability of a revolver action?
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Simple is survival. I'm partial to a breach loading rifle and or shotgun. There are some amazing 1920-1940 single and side by side shotgun/rifles where changing the caliber and ammo type was as easy as swapping barrels. Breach loaders are simple by design. Simple means less to go wrong, and easier to fix. Survival and combat ready are two very different concepts.
I don't think of survival in the same terms as a lot of people. My rifle is a great big part of my survival kit. Apart from my water bottle, first aid kit, and ammunition it's the most important. Right now I've got an AR. I would prefer something a little less tacticool and something a little more "mornin' officer, I'm just a regular ol' hunter moving through" but that's far off in the future. If I were stuck with 556 I would much rather a mini14, just because I already know the guts of an M14. One advantage of the nini14 is that it's smaller than my favorite rifle, the disadvantage is that it looks like a toy beside an M14.
Anyways.
As center fire ammunition goes 556 is fairly cheep because of it's use in many world armies. When the army uses a cartridge there is a lot of excess ammunition, with the excess comes price reduction. Besides the price the round is fairly small. For my birthday I got a thousand rounds of 556. It doesn't weigh much at all. I remember the UPS guy delivering ammunition for my dad back in the competition days, a box of 1000 rounds of .308 weighs easily twice as much.
The rifle its self looks like a tiny version of an M14, and a variety of adjustable and folding stocks can make it look even more irritatingly minuscule.
"If you can't think of a good reason to blow some stuff up then you're playing the wrong game my friend." -GM
I was looking into "survival rifles" and i think i agree. I think that a Circuit judge would fill the role of a survival rifle just fine. No offense to the .22LR, but it won't bring down that larger game that will provide you with that fat and protein that you need to live. Yes, you can use a .22 to kill rabbits, squirrels, and other small game, but most of us have heard of "rabbit starvation".
The only thing i DONT like about the Rossi circuit Judge, is that the stock is fuggin ugly.
i hear that the judge is ammo picky to say the least. For survival i want a gun that will fire any piece of crap ammo i stick in it reliably.
Well i don't know about the Circuit Judge, but a very close friend of mine has a 3" judge pistol and the raging judge and they work just fine with regular 'ol Walmart brand cartridges and shells. We've even gone dove hunting with them before and we have never had a failure. There isn't much to go wrong with a revolver style weapon.
Oh my friend there is alot to go wrong with revolvers. Its usually catastrophic when it does go wrong too.
potentially there is a lot that can go wrong with any firearm. However, there is less with a revolver than a autoloader.
A stall fire in a revolver means stop pulling the trigger asap before the round blows up the gun. Now survival not as big of a deal, but if you start pulling the trigger and get a stall fire and pull it again your in very bad place. Every other type of gun has a way to eject a round or hold it in the chamber until you clear it. Revolvers are pretty much the only exception.
Yeah, rabbit starvation is not exclusive to rabbits, it's the name of a condition called protein poisoning where your body receives the same type of meat or food for a long period of time with no other sources of nourishment. Eating rabbit two days in a row isn't likely to give you rabbit starvation.
In a survival situation, it may not be a good idea to try and take a larger animals due to the fact of the work that it will take to clean, dress, and prepare the animal for use. It's great if you have the space, time, and supplies necessary to do so and if you do, then a larger caliber gun, like a bolt action .223, .270, or even .308 might be better for you. Also, there is the fact of the danger the animal itself can present to you should you miss or not kill it on the first shot. There are plenty of stories of hunters who died at the hoofs or claws of a vengeful animal in the throws of it's own death (or the hunter's own stupidity for tackling more than they could handle). A rabbit, monty python jokes aside, is far less likely to try and rage kill you and are easier game to kill and in survival, easy is the way to go.
If you look at the construction of the Rossi (a division of Taurus) Circuit Judge, it is simply a Taurus Judge with a rifle barrel. Consider the fact that using the shotgun option in the rifled barrel will eventually mess up the rifling so that should be something you do less often because your accuracy will be affected in the .45 long colt use. It's a neat idea in theory, but it's better in the revolver option because you are basically holding a mini shotgun and .45 in the same small place. There isn't as much barrel to screw up when you choose to go shotgun with the .410/.45 revolver as opposed to a rifle. There is a reason you don't shoot regular loads out of rifled shotgun barrels if you care about your gun's longevity. This is fine in a smooth-bore, but not so much much in a rifled barrel. If the barrel is not rifled in the Rossi, then the .45 wouldn't be that accurate anyway. You are basically buying a bad swiss army knife that's a cool concept, but in use, defeats itself. Not what I want in a survival gun. The less maintenance I have to do on my survival gun, because maintenance is time I might not have, the better. Upon more research, found out that the Rossi is sold with either a smooth or rifled bore so you still have to make a choice (maybe in the same package, if anyone already owns one, please tell us what you got). The versatility of the gun is only versatile if you can use it without a bunch of tools and specialty items for it's intended "special" purpose. Sorry.
Rabbit Starvation Wikipedia Definition.
Rossi Circuit Judge.
"Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
The concept behind "survival" is that you are hanging on until rescue. It isn't like you are trying to become self sufficient, if you were then a one gun platform is not the way you should go. In a survival situation you would run out of ammunition long before you ruin the barrel on your gun shooting birdshot out of it.
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OTG and survival can be considered the same if looking from the OTG stand point, but not necessarily the other way around. Now as the idea of this site is zombie end game, OTG might be more the view the majority is coming from. I personally look at everything as OTG because when SHTF the grid can eat poo. Especially with the new data revealed about martial law policy in the US.
Nick, it only takes one time to mess up that barrel, you want to take the chance that it's not the first time, that's on you, but I warned ya.
"Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening a mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
So you think lead shot is going to mess up your steel barrel?
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Some 410 shells are specifically made for firing out of a judge. They're solid disks with shot between them. Works well from what I've heard. I've got a neighbor who's got one I'll ask him.
"If you can't think of a good reason to blow some stuff up then you're playing the wrong game my friend." -GM
The circuit judge actually comes with a choke for shooting buckshot and birdshot. The biggest problem with shooting shot out of a rifled barrel is the crappy patterns you get. Shot tends to form a doughnut like pattern that doesn't put much shot in the center of the patter. Other than that the next biggest problem you get is lead fouling which occurs over time.
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